Milk and Madness

 the issue with mental load is that it makes things a chore.

It makes things unenjoyable. It takes the enjoyment out of things for me because it becomes part of this mental load.

There will always be someone who takes more of their share at times, potentially.

I think it's when it's, ongoing and long term when it's on one person, that's when it's not balanced  

Hey friends. Welcome to the Milk and Madness podcast. Thank you so much for joining us again.

I'm Nhi. And today we are doing an exciting part two on mental load. Now, I don't know about you Dee, but on reflection after last week, in a way I feel a bit lighter having had that conversation with you and talking about mental load in a way that I probably have not spoken to anyone about before outside of my husband.

And I would say that it hasn't like fixed any mental load problems that exist, but. It's validated how I felt and I feel a bit lighter, which is really, really interesting. So I think it does highlight the importance of just talking through things and how much that can help.

But yes, today we're doing a follow up on mental load and we are going to bust some myths about mental load. And I think in particular, if you're someone who you don't have kids yet and you've heard about mental load, but you don't really know. what it is, and there could be some misconceptions. This is what we're doing.

Yeah, let's do it. You are so right for me. Talking about anything always makes you feel a lot better. It's just like that weight lifted off your shoulder, whether it's just you talking about it or being validated through it or whatever you end up getting out of it. For me though, it also made me think about it even more and reflect on it even more.

And there is so much more that needs to be said, and there's so much more that needs to be done. And it really made me think about things a lot deeper. So let's talk about some myths.

So myth number one, mental load is a woman's responsibility.

It's not, but I think there is definitely a perception in society that it is, and it is because women are becoming more vocal about mental load and the impact of mental load and how it's, how it's affecting, you know, your feelings about, and your enjoyment of being a mom. So I think that has definitely added to that misconception.

The other thing is that. Women are still predominantly the primary caregiver. That, that is literally how it is in society still, for the majority of countries right now, women are the ones who, you know, we become pregnant, we deal with all that stuff. And then we usually go on maternity leave.

And there is a slow shift happening in terms of you know, government's putting importance on men doing parental leave as well, but right now, yes, it's still predominantly women who go on maternity leave, they have all the mental of taking care of that newborn during that period. Then they go back to work most of the time.

And then there's no shift in terms of that mental load when they go back to work. And so it continues. Having kids is something that takes two. To do like 99 percent of the time and,

I think there's there's a lot that needs to happen still in terms of that more equal division of bringing up the children and all the responsibilities that is included in that. But, there's absolute misconception that it is women's responsibility and it absolutely is not.

What do you think? Correct. I, I, you've said it. You've said it really well. The only thing that I would add on that probably ties into why this is a misconception or why people think that going back to our previous episode and what we've spoken about, because it's invisible and you cannot see it.

When I think back, cause like I said, I've been reflecting over the last week or so, it, on this topic. And when you go back to gender roles as they were defined way back when, and they have evolved so many times over the years. I think back on times when women, you know, couldn't write books, they had to put them in men's names

and it's changed so much since then. But. The visible things, like being able to write a book, like mowing the lawn, like, etc, etc, you could visually see them, you could visually see those things and you could define them as a man's job in air quotes or a woman's job in air quotes. And the thing that you cannot see is mental load. currently, I think it still is a woman's responsibility, but I think that's shifting and it has been shifting for many, many, many years and it will continue to shift. And I really, really do hope that like our kids generation, it's, it's going to be a different life for them as it is for me compared to my mum and your mum.

I think we want to shed some light on that and make sure that people really take stock and really think about all the things that they are doing. And if they're feeling really overwhelmed and if they're feeling stressed,maybe it's just their mental load. And if they look at it for what it is, then they can obviously put things into place to start rectifying that and yeah, we just need to keep the conversation going. Yeah. I think it's one of those situations where, yes, it was. a woman's responsibility in the past, as you've said, but it hasn't fully shifted yet. So that misconception is still there. It absolutely should not be a woman's responsibility only, but in many situations right now, I think.

It is a situation where it might be, shouldn't be, but it is, unfortunately mental load is all about chores.

What do you think about that? Yeah, that one, I don't know who came up with that one, and I kind of see where they're coming from. Cause I think probably the main thing that women probably nag about is about chores.

I guess maybe that's where it's come from, but I wholeheartedly disagree. And I just want to like take a step back because I think that the mental load that men carry versus the mental load that women carry, they're different. Men carry other pressures that women don't carry. And going back to those old school norms where women had to be at stay at home moms and men also have those pressures where they had to be the breadwinners and they had to provide and they had to do certain things and be handy men and be good that sort of stuff.

And not all men are good at that. And not all men are good at being a home maker, and yes, so let's acknowledge that first. The second one is that it isn't all about chores. So, over the last week, I've had a major thing happen in my life with my work.

I got made redundant and I'm okay with it now, but over the week and a half that it's been ongoing, I've noticed that I drive without really thinking about where I'm going it's a quiet space. And so I'm thinking about, all the things that I need to do going forward. And all the unknowns coming. And I'm finding that that is adding on and it's causing a really big mental load.

And then of course, when you add that onto all the other household day to day responsibilities it becomes a lot. So no, it's not just about chores. It's about the health of your children. It's about your health. It's about them growing up. Well, it's about your work. It's about, it's about your relationship.

It's about your living conditions. It's about. Taxes. It's about all of those things. Everything. It's literally about everything. The weather, to have the kids got codes, do they have the right size clothes? Like it is 100 percent not about chores, in my opinion. What do you think? Yes.

I think that, the issue with mental load is that it makes things a chore.

It makes things unenjoyable. It takes the enjoyment out of things for me because it becomes part of this mental load. And the thing with mental load is that it's a combination of everything that you just mentioned and how they connect. Right. So it's all that stuff you just mentioned, like, how's the weather going to impact this and that?

And then, you know, there's these things in the pantry and then that affects food and then that affects when I can go groceries. And then that affects, you know, just the ongoing. flow on effect of all those pieces together make All those things a chore for me. So, and that's something I really want to highlight is that, you know, I, I love being a mom and there's so much about being a mom that I enjoy.

But the sad thing is that when those things add on to my mental load and I start thinking and feeling about those things in that way, it takes enjoyment out of it, which has a flow on effect to other things in terms of my mental health, how full my cup is for my kids.

Right. And, and all that stuff. So mental load is definitely not just about chores. Chores is. It is a massive component of mental load. If we didn't have any chores, I think my mental load would be a whole lot lighter. So the thing is, it makes things that shouldn't feel like a chore, feel like a chore and takes the enjoyment out of stuff, which I think is really sad.

Sad. Yeah. I, I agree. You, you, you know, when you've lost the love of a particular thing not that anyone loves like cleaning, for example, I'm sure, maybe some people do, some people find it cathartic, but

I find cleaning really satisfying, I really do, but not when it has impacted my mental health.

Yes. So, you know, for example, cleaning as a, is, is a massive chore that affects my mental load and it affects my mental health, right? So for me, it's not about messing the house. Like we always have Lego everywhere, there's toys everywhere, but I'm okay with that. For me, it's when the house becomes messy.

When I feel gross, when there's like food crumbs everywhere, there's popcorn kernels everywhere, that stuff starts adding to my mental load. I think about it. I'm like, okay, we're really into vacuum. I need to do this stuff. Okay. I've got, I've got this work meeting. Can I fit in a vacuum? And then you've got to do all this stuff.

Right. And then when it's been pushed down the list in my mental load, it starts affecting my mental health. Because I do not enjoy having a dirty house and then it know, might affect my energy levels. It might affect how stressed I am about certain things and how I am with my kids, which I do not want.

So then it's just, yeah, it's like an ongoing cycle, I suppose, of trying to manage your mental load. And then when it isn't managed, it affects other things. And it's just, it's, it's not great. But moving on great segue, I think to the next myth, which is everyone's mental load is the same.

I mean, surely, right? We're moms. Obviously we have the same life. And the same struggles and no it can't be, no one's life experience is the same. No one's traumas are the same. No one's triggers are the same. No one's personality is the same. What might stress you might, might be like, yeah, that's, I'm okay with it today.

Maybe tomorrow it might stress me out because I've got other things going on. And that ties back to what I was saying about men and women. They have different struggles, different stresses there's different things that affect them in different ways. And the way that they manage mental load is different to, to us.

Not to mention, obviously, we've got, you know, cultural expectations, there's your age, there's, like I said, your gender there's so many things that go into it. It cannot be the same. It will not be the same. And that's why I think having these conversations is important because I can talk to you about it and you can potentially tell me how you feel about it. went through it, or if you haven't gone through it, then maybe when you do, you might be able to refer back to these conversations. So yeah, in a nutshell, it is definitely not the same in any way, shape, form in any universe. Like it's just not possible.

Do you agree? I do. I do absolutely agree. I would say that there are some commonalities, absolutely though, right?

Because I would say your mental load and my mental load would include recurring similar themes on some things, but obviously there'll be things that you, you know, are thinking about that I might not be in vice versa. But I would say that there are definitely themes that I think most primary caregivers would say is in their mental load.

But in terms of how it looks and how it impacts them yes, I would say mental load is quite unique in terms of how you experience it for everyone.

We sort of touched on this one before, but the next myth is that mental load is not a problem.

It's just a way for women to nag.

God. I'll let you go first. I hate that nagging thing. You know, if you feel like we're nagging is because you haven't listened and we feel like we need to repeat ourselves, which we do not want to do absolutely do not want to repeat myself. So that would be my comment on nagging.

It's absolutely a problem. I can only really speak for myself and, and, you know, through the conversations I've had with family and friends, but mental load is absolutely a problem. It has a flow on effect on wider implications to, you know, your family and household, your relationships, your energy, your work, everything.

Because it's such a, how would I describe it? It's kind of like, it's like a, it's like a shadow. It's like, something that's always lingering there. Can't get rid of it as much as you try. And I think it can be very negative to all aspects of your life.

So no, it is not just us nagging. It's a real problem. And if you think that your partner is nagging about it, stop and try to listen to what they are trying to tell you. They are not, they are not complaining for the sake of it. They are not trying to attack you. They are trying to tell you of a real problem that they have that they would like your support with.

That's what I would say in terms of nagging.

Yeah. And just to add on for this particular myth, as a woman, if you feel like you're nagging, and as a man, if you feel like your partner is nagging, I think you should really have a conversation because something's not working.

Obviously the communication there, it's not working. If it gets to that stage where you're nagging, then It's not working. End of story. The other point that I wanted to make is around that transition between when the mum is the primary caregiver, you know, having given birth being at home on maternity leave, your You're going through everything step by step, you know, when feed time is, et cetera.

So then when the father comes home or when the father wants to help, they have to, I guess, learn, right? Like you've experienced it, you've gone through it, you know, you've read the cues, you know, when they're hungry, you know, when they're tired. But the dad doesn't know that because I haven't experienced that firsthand.

So. You either sort of teach them or help them learn because they're not going to know from the get go. Because that's where I find sometimes the disconnect happens is when I know something really well, but then Calvin might not know something really well.

That's when I find that I'm nagging is when I'm trying to kind of get something through to him, trying to get him to understand something, and I have to keep repeating myself because he just either doesn't understand that flow and effect to your point earlier, or he just hasn't been across the issue you know, from the beginning, and I have to kind of bring him on board and bring him into the journey and bring him into the fold so he fully understands where I'm coming from and why I'm saying this needs to get done or that needs to get done.

Why hasn't this been done? Like, this is what it's caused. Sometimes, I have given him a task and just gone, go with it, like flow with it. And it's funny, when I have done that, and I've been on the receiving end, on the other end of nagging, so to speak, it's not, it's not fun, right?

And that's how I've kind of realized, oh, okay, I see, I see it from when the shoe is on the other foot, is that it's not that I'm not listening, or it's not that I'm not paying attention, or it's not that I, don't want to help. It's that I'm not fully across what's going on here. And so I'm really mindful of that as well when I feel like I'm nagging.

But a hundred percent, if you feel like you're nagging, have the conversation because there's something there that's not working, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah. No, good points. Good points. Mentaloid is easy to balance. I feel like we've answered this, but let's go for it.

You can go first.

No, it's not. Is my answer.

It's look, it's quite complicated because it it involves other people, mental load, because you're trying to have everything run smoothly that impacts your. Life and your kids lives and your partner's life as well. If it was just about me, sure. My God, easy. There wouldn't be any issues in terms of that.

But because it involves other people and there's so much coordination involved and planning involved with mental load that it makes it more complicated. And. It's an issue of time, we're all time poor, and there is always so much going on at any time. There is endless decisions to make, you know, we mentioned decision, decision fatigue last week.

There's just so many layers to it. So no, the answer is, it is not easy to balance. It is something that involves a lot of work. You know, better communication between you and your partner. It involves listening, not just hearing. And it is something that takes from my experience anyways, has taken quite a bit of time to like refine in terms of understanding the priorities in my mental load as well.

So, you know, you've got a list of stuff, but then I know if my house is gross and I don't push that up higher on my list. That really, that really impacts everything else in my mental load and also that flow on effect with mental health and energy levels and all the other stuff. So that has taken time.

Mental load creeps up on you, but it's not something that you can just have a solution for like that. It's time, it's learnings, it's the communication stuff. It's it's a whole heap of different approaches and I suppose strategies to try to manage Thanks.

What do you think? Yeah.

It's, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was extra balanced, purely and simply. It's even when you think you've got a balance or a harmony or whatever you want to call it, even if you think you're in a good spot, one simple thing can just turn that on its head. Your day to day interactions are never the same, it's not Groundhog Day, you never have the exact same day.

every day to be able to balance all this out. So every day , it's like, okay, where's the, where's the drink bottle? Oh my God, I forgot to do the lunchbox. Oh, the clothes aren't clean. Oh, today I've got to go get petrol in my car. Cause I'm like on an empty tank for the last two days, you know, all those things factor in.

And it's never one size fits all. So no, it's not easy to balance. There are, like you said, things that you can prioritize and deprioritize to make sure that it doesn't get so overwhelming. And there's definitely. Tactics that you can put in place to manage your time better and, you know, do things the day before or prep or outsource or whatever it might be to help with that balance.

But sometimes all it takes is, to your point about it creeping up on you, you don't realize until it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. So sometimes you're like, you know, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine. Got a million things to do, but like, I feel really productive and I feel really good.

And then. You know, your car breaks down or something happens, right? The other week I got locked in my garage because I don't know, it wouldn't work and I had to go pick up Aiden from school and I was like, Oh my gosh, how am I going to get him? And I tried to manually override it and it didn't work.

And then I had to call my neighbor to come and physically hold my garage open while I got the car out. And thank, seriously, thank God for my neighbors. They are like the best, like you have no idea, but you know, just something small could just. throw you completely out. And it's just about how you manage those things, how you are in a crisis type situation.

It's all those things that it's the 1 percent things, right? All those little things that build on each other. Not just in your mental load capacity, but in how you deal with mental load. I think they, they go hand in hand. You need to really look at how you deal with your mental load so that when these things happen, you aren't so overwhelmed.

Like you're a little bit overwhelmed, but it's still manageable. Like they're the things where I feel, even though it's not a balance, I feel like that's where you can kind of. course correct a little bit and get yourself out of those situations. Because, because there is no balancing mental load between partners, between household, you know, if you live with siblings or cousins, aunties, whoever, there is no balancing that there will always be someone who takes more of their share at times, potentially.

I think it's when it's, ongoing and long term when it's on one person, that's when it's not balanced between a family unit. It's all about how you deal with that and you really need to take stock of when those situations happen, how you are dealing with it. Is it like the smallest thing that causes you to break down?

And if so, how Why? Is it because of all the thousand other little things? Or is it just because you do not have the emotional intelligence or the ability to deal with that crisis? And then from there, obviously, you can kind of decide on how you're going to tackle that, that issue. the last one that we have, I believe, is that mental load is not a workplace issue.

I think mental load really happens when you start having kids, because I've had multiple roles, lots of different organizations and you know, different types of roles, managing people, not managing people. And I just reflect back to my life before I had kids. And the mental load was. Not fair or not a concern, not a concern.

And since I've had kids, that's a different story. And now I'm sitting here thinking, why, what's happened? Like, why, why has that really changed? In a nutshell, I think, no, it's not a workplace problem. It can add to mental load, but for me, it really started having kids and I don't know if it comes down to the fact that there's other lives that I'm responsible for and that that's such a massive responsibility and maybe it's the weight of that and everything that is involved in wanting to make sure that I bring up.

These boys in a way that they, you know, good human beings who contribute to society and are great partners and all that stuff. Maybe it's just a weight of, of that stuff. And then all the stuff that comes from that has added to my mental load. It's, I'm not sure, but I would say. I don't think it's a workplace thing.

So in my experience, mental load has It's definitely times a thousand since I've become a mom, but it is something that I have felt throughout my whole life. Like it is not, yes, absolutely. I was, I had more freedom of time.

I obviously had more freedom of money where I was only spending money on myself. But in my work and in my personal life, mental load has been present. Absolutely. And definitely with my. work. So let's talk about since becoming a mom, my views on work and how it should operate and how it should be has definitely changed.

And I think in order to have good employees it is a workplace issue in that, in that respect, because when you've got people that are going through some pretty heavy things in their life, whether they've got children or not then unfortunately it does. bleed into other aspects of their life, including their work life.

And same with your work. If you have a lot of pressure, if you're experiencing bullying, if you're experiencing discrimination, if you're experiencing anything other than, you know, what you should be experiencing, which is a positive workplace, a good culture, then that bleeds into your personal life as well.

And it has for me.

So I don't feel that it's, you know, a domestic problem, a personal problem. Like it does bleed into other factors of your life and definitely into your workplace and it goes both ways.

You are there, you are getting paid to do a job, 100 percent agree, but sometimes I think things need to be highlighted and people, management, executives, they just need to acknowledge that this can happen, that things will happen in people's lives, whether it's health problems, whether it's financial problems, whether it's domestic problems, things will occur, and it will affect Your workplace and your work.

Yes, absolutely. I think I agree with what you, what you just said. I think I agree, but it's really interesting because I would say that before I had kids, yes, I had work pressures and stress and there was stuff that, you know, I was worried about or stuff that was on my mind, but

I wouldn't describe those things as mental load, which is really interesting. Right. And then I would say that since I've had my boys, that I feel I experienced mental load. I feel like it's for me, it's a different thing to, having the stress and pressures and other stuff that's on my mind at work before I had kids, if that makes sense.

But I think that's all our myths for today. That is all the myths. Right.

Before we wrap up at all in terms of mental load. I'm sure we will have further episodes on it because there's just so much to unpick and you know, our experience of mental load has got to evolve and shift and change and all that stuff. But is there anything else that you're dying to say about mental load?

Yes, I think we need a part three, maybe not next week, but sometime sometime in the future, because you are right. There's. you know, new milestones on the horizon, they're coming. And I think we do need to talk about them. Like I said, identifying, you know, the, the root cause, or, or at least try to identify the root cause.

Sometimes you don't quite hit the nail on the head and you think, oh, it's because I'm stressed because I have to cook dinners every night, but in fact, it might actually be the other 50 things on your list that's causing it. And dinners is just. the one thing that sets you off at the end of the day. So really, really taking stock, really auditing what you do.

We've said it last week, I'm sure, but try and look inwards a lot, because the activity is not the issue. Right. The activity, it's making dinner. You have to eat. That's not actually what the issue is. You have to look internally and go, okay, why, why is dinner making me so stressed? Is it because I don't feel like I'm a good cook and I'm not giving my kids enough nutrition what is actually causing the way that you feel? And that's just in general, in life, whatever the issue might be, I think that's, that's a good place to start. Why is this happening? If you don't know what's causing it, you're just in the dark on, on those things. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is obviously, as we say every single week, I'm sure is just communicate, communicate with your girlfriends, communicate with your partner, communicate with your mom, your sister, your whoever it might be, talk to them about what their mental loads are.

Do they feel the same? Why do they feel the same? And that might help you identify why you are feeling the same way. Having those conversations, obviously, you know, it helps you, but it helps them as well. I know that it definitely helps me when I chat to you guys, or , when you guys come to me and say, this is, This is the issue that I'm having.

And you know, I can, I can pull on those things later on in life. So definitely those two things are the main points that I really want to stress. And you, and you're not alone. Trust me, you are not alone. There are how many billion people on the planet and they all go through mental load in different ways and different forms.

So, please speak to someone, whether it's professionally or just, just a mate. Or a stranger, like whatever, like I've vented to strangers before. And it has been really nice because they don't know you from a bar of soaps. Sometimes it works. So yeah, that's, that's my last piece of advice for this episode.

What about you?

I think that I just want to stress that mental load can have a real impact on your relationships. And look, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not going to give you any stats. But I'm going to say that mental load is one of the key reasons or one of the many key reasons why people get divorced.

I'm just going to put it out there. Because. You know, communication can break down. You're going through a lot, especially when you have a newborn and, you know, both partners don't know what's going on and they're like, Oh my God, we just need to keep this baby alive. And we need to keep each other alive.

And there's just so much new pressures and stresses and the unknown and communication breaks down. And if, know, if there's not the. Time spent to talk about mental load and the impact that it's having, it gets to a point where it might be, I don't know, kind of like too late almost because there's so much resentment.

You know, I would say have I felt resentment throughout, you know, my relationship with Matthew because of mental load? Yeah, for sure. And I would say he feel he would have. Felt that too. Like, well, we've been lucky because we've been, you know, able to talk about it and, and kind of work through stuff.

But I know that there are so many relationships out there where they may, might not have, and it's gotten to the point where we, the relationship has, it's fallen apart and it's not redeemable, I suppose, in terms of that. And a quick shout out to my friend, Evelyn, who has her own podcast.

It's called Legacy Building Mamas. And I listened to her episode recently where she and her partner were talking about mental load and their experience. And they literally said, we, we talked about the big D we came up in conversation. And I was like, Oh, wow. Because I know that they're really strong.

Right. So. I just want to stress it's a silent, quiet thing creeps up on you and it can have impacts that could be life changing. So be mindful of that.

So on that note, please take care of yourself. Take care of your mental load. It's going to be there. You cannot avoid it. It's just not possible. I'm sorry to tell you. But make sure that, you Get in early and make sure that you're having those conversations and you're resolving any issues and not letting it build up to the point where you're resenting your partner.

You're showing them contempt, any of those things, because that is just the worst case scenario, and it can very easily be fixed earlier. So please have conversations with your girlfriends. Please let us know how you're going. What are you finding? Is the biggest mental load currently or that you've had in your life?

What stage of your life did you find that that crept up in? I know that definitely when you become a new parent, it changes that whole landscape and all these new things can just overwhelm you. So please speak to your girlfriends.

they might need that conversation. Even if you don't feel like you do, go and speak to them. If you think something's not quite right and that they need a little bit of help or a little bit of therapy, free therapy from you. As always, please take care. And we'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.