Milk and Madness

 It's interesting cause it really highlights you can't judge or make assumptions on what you see from other people.
She was visibly petrified. Like she was crying. She was so scared.

Hello and welcome. This is Dee and Nhi. We're the hosts for the Milk and Madness podcast. Thank you for joining us. Helicopter, tiger, free range. Am I just saying random words? No, I'm describing different parenting styles. So the concept of parenting styles has been around for some time. It was introduced in the 1960s and the psychologist identified three main styles of parenting I'm going to butcher these.

So bear with me. Authoritarian. Authoritative and permissive. And then a fourth style was later added in the 1980s by Stanford researchers, and since then there's been a whole bunch of subtypes added.

We did some quick research before this episode, and we'll have all the sources listed in the show notes for you to refer to if you'd like.

But a quick summary of what the four main types of parenting styles are in case, like us, You didn't know much about them. So there's authoritarian, focus on obedience, punishment over discipline. Authoritative, create positive relationships, enforce rules. Permissive, which is don't enforce rules. It's all about the kid's will-be kids' kind of approach.

And uninvolved, which is to provide little guidance. nurturing or attention. And there are many subtypes of parenting as well, including free range, helicopter, snowplow, , lighthouse, attachment, and tiger parenting. Personally, Dee and I, we don't think there is any one style that is right or wrong.

We're all different. And it makes sense that our approach to parenting will come with differences as well. Also. I think our parenting styles may be a mix of a few different types, but for some fun, Dee and I completed a parenting style quiz so how did it go? What parenting style did you get?

So I got helicopter. And I, yes, I got attachment and okay. So, according to parents.com, because honestly, I didn't know what helicopter was, so I did have to look it up. So helicopter is if you're an overprotective parent who feels the need to control most aspects of your child's life, you likely fit the bill of a helicopter parent.

Helicopter parents constantly intervene in their kid's life and they obsess about successes and failures. The risk-assessing tendencies of helicopter parents are often driven by fear and anxiety and parents who intervene in this way can hinder a child's ability to learn integral life skills, confidence and self-sufficiency.

Do you agree with this?

Yes. Short answer is yes. I think that description from parents.com, I think that's, the extreme version of helicopter parenting. But with the assessment, I do agree that I am a helicopter parent. So short answer. Yes. Okay. Can we dive into your one or?

Yeah. Actually, I have some comments about your results. Sure. Because. It's interesting cause it really highlights you can't judge or make assumptions on what you see from other people because my first impressions and my husband Matthew feels the same, like I brought it up

the other day is that from mother's group, you just came across so chilled. And I remember reflecting on like the first couple of mothers group like, Oh Dee, she's so chilled. I wish I was a bit more like that. Here I am, just thinking about every little thing and researching every little thing.

I just remember thinking, wow, you're so chilled and you seem to have it all together and you seemed really unfazed about what was going on. And I think maybe more free range from my basic understanding, what free range is I think, which is like to give kids independence and being less supervised.

And yes, that was my first impression. So now that I know you better, obviously, it's been six years, and we're doing this podcast and everything. And I think I do agree knowing your experience in terms of anxiety and how that does influence, your approach to parenting that I would agree more, but first impressions.

And I would also say if someone didn't know you well, and they just saw you at a park or they just met you at a kid's birthday party, I would say that they wouldn't agree with that because you just, you do seem to have it all together. And I'm not saying you don't have it all together, but. You wouldn't think, oh she was potentially feeling quite anxious about this situation.

Yeah,

and I can totally see how that would come across because, like I said, I think this description is the extreme end of it. But when you read the section where it talks about, let me just try and find it, risk assessing tendencies and that it's driven by fear and anxiety.

That really clicked and hit home. Cause I had never really thought about that. And even though I have always done this, like I've always assessed risk. That's just part of my personality, not to say that I've not done things that are dangerous and stupid. I have, but I've always had this tendency to risk assess.

And I think that's flowed on into my parenting. And when it says that it's driven by fear and anxiety, I 100 percent agree. So I think my helicopter parenting comes. in certain situations and at certain times. Generally though, I am quite free range and I'm happy for the kids to climb on things and fall over and do all those sort of things and experience their own experiences.

So back to what you were saying at the start, like we are a mixture of a number of different styles, but overarching, I feel like maybe my fear and anxiety is causing me to be more of the helicopter parent than the other styles. So it's taking over a little bit, which I'm working on.

Yeah. Cause I would say, look, I definitely assess risk and some decisions are based on that, but it's definitely not the driving force or the overall main parenting theme driver of how I am a mom.

So yeah, it's, it is really interesting, really interesting. But yeah, so I got attachment.

Yes. So let me have a read of what parents.com says. Attachment parenting involves a nurturing and hands on approach. These parents think that putting a child's needs first leads to independence and emotional stability.

Parents who follow this style value physical closeness, bed sharing,

and co-sleeping, extended breastfeeding, positive discipline, and other attachment-based approaches to raising children. Kids of parents with higher levels of responsiveness and warmth had more than two times better language skills than children whose parents were less responsive.

On the other hand, this parenting style is demanding and can sometimes feel out of balance when parents are less flexible in their approach. What are your thoughts on that description?

I think it's accurate in most parts. But look, bed sharing, absolutely not. Matthew and I were pretty against that because you hear stories of people who started, and then the kids were like 10 or something, and they still want to do it.

So we were like, no, they need their own space. We all know my breastfeeding story, Ambrose wasn't breastfed at all, but you know, that wasn't a personal choice. So I would say probably if everything was going well, I would have kept going for longer than the three attempts that we had. But yeah, I do agree in most part in terms of the putting the child's needs first, I would say yes.

I think in a, I'm just trying to reflect in terms of, with maybe discipline or that kind of stuff. I do try to just to think in the moment, okay, what is it that he needs in this moment right now and try to give that to him. And I do agree. It can be demanding and exhausting in every situation it's always thinking what kids need how are they going to learn from this situation and I do think that yes. It can feel a bit out of balance when I'm out of that style, which I'm definitely out of that style sometimes.

When I'm really stressed and I just, I don't have that mental space, that capability or capacity to, put them first or it's just, it's a really rough day or something like that. And maybe I shout, then yeah, it would be quite a shock to the kids because that's not the normal approach.

So long story short, yes, I do agree with most of that.

First impressions for me, and I wouldn't know what title to put on it, but I do agree when it says that you're a child-led parent, the way that you parent, because you do you always think about

Kenzo and Ambrose and what they need and what they might want to do. Like you're not, and I'm only comparing it to other styles now, you're not the sort of person that would be like, Oh, we're going to do this activity because I want to do it. And you just have to tag along. Like you always involve them in activities and you always try and make it appropriate for the kids.

And then what their interests are, you don't try and force them into things that they're not really interested in. You might present it to them and be like, Oh, hey, do you want to try this? And if they say no, then it's a flat-out no. And you're like, you move on. So I do agree with that.

Like you are quite nurturing. You are very hands-on. I wouldn't have known to put attachment as the title or as the label, but I think you are really trying to raise them to be independent and definitely the emotional side of things. Like you're smashing that. I think you as a person as well, are really good at feeling your emotions

and then that leads on to the kids then being comfortable to feel how they feel. I feel like this description is the extreme of what attachment is. You definitely have those qualities and you are close with your kids and you love them and you want to be around them. You want to spend time with them. So if that means attachment, then I guess that's it.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally. Before you became a mom, would you have thought or did you think that you were going to be a helicopter parent? Maybe not that title per se, but did you think when I become a mom, this is going to be my approach?

No, because I didn't really give it that much thought.

And it goes back to what you're saying about first impressions about me being chill. I think a lot of that chillness just comes from ignorance, to be completely honest. , I just give yourself more credit. Come on. No. No but I didn't have a big family growing up and I didn't have a lot of like little kids around me and apart from my sister, but I was small too.

I didn't have a lot of those experiences where I could really observe. So it really came from close friends, co-workers where they would tell me stories. They would tell me about things that they did when their kids were little and stories about what they would do differently in hindsight and one of the themes that I noticed was around not setting boundaries. And I think I went into motherhood quite consciously wanting to make sure that I set boundaries. Because I felt that from all the stories that I'd heard, that was the missing piece that had they have set some boundaries, things would have turned out.

And like I said, they said it to me, not in those exact words, but they're like, Oh, if I had done this. And then when I put it all together, I'm like, okay, all that needed was some boundaries, whether it was boundaries with their partner, whether it was boundaries with in laws, parents, siblings, whoever it might be, and the kids themselves.

And so I went into that style. And I think I gravitated into that style as well, because , I do risk assess. And so when things would happen and I would notice red flags and I would notice patterns, I'm like, okay in order to rectify this or to prevent this, I need to put in certain boundaries.

So I think maybe unintentionally, unconsciously. But when I do look back on it now and I reflect on the last six years journey, I think that this was always going to be my parenting style, just based on my personality traits, and I think it's evolving.

So I actually want my parenting style to get to an authoritative. The one that I can't say, authoritative style, where the kids and I have a really good relationship, but I'm still their mom, and I'm still going to enforce rules, and I'm still going to set boundaries for them. So that's the next step for me in my parenting journey.

What about you? Did you go in thinking picking one or having a fear that you were going to be a particular one? Or did you, before you did this quiz, what did you think that the answer would be?

No idea to be honest at all, because I think that because it's such a mixed bag, Is that accurate? No, I probably would have said, I probably would have said attachment if you gave me a description of all of them and went through them.

It would probably tick most of the boxes. It's an extension of your personality in regards to what you are about as an individual. And I would say that it just, it's not something that I have thought about at all. It's just what's come natural in regards to this, but there's definitely been some influences.

My parents. Their parenting style, my experiences with that. I come from a really big family. So just seeing and observing that as well. A lot of my aunties and uncles, their kids are younger than me. So I've seen that when I was in primary school and high school, I would see them as, really newborn and toddlers, and it's just experiencing and seeing how they were parenting and just.

And just making mental notes, going, I'm not sure, I would do it differently. Cause I've always wanted kids, like I've always wanted to be a mum and I think subconsciously that's always been something I've observed. So I wouldn't say that there, we've mentioned this before, there's no parent who's not, that is the best.

It's what's best for you and what is the best for your kid and what they need. Yeah. But I would say that my parenting style has definitely changed as well throughout this experience. So at the start, I would say that I was more of a helicopter parent for sure, because a lot of stuff was driven from anxiety and fear of, am I going to do something that is going to ruin them forever?

If they're not sleep trained or, like whatever it is that you're going through in those really early stages, I was definitely more helicopter, but I think that I've just grown into being a mum. And that confidence of, you know what, no, I've got this.

Yes. There might be some stuff that if I could do again, I might change slightly. But I think as the years have gone by and the kids are getting older and our relationship is definitely becoming more of a, friendship kind of way. Obviously, I'm still their mom, but as we've progressed to that, then I'm definitely being more of an attached parenting style, I don't foresee that I'm going to stay in that forever. I think there will always be elements of the attachment parenting, but like you I want to get to a stage when they're grownups, when they're adults, I want to be someone who they can come for advice.

I think we'll always have that mum-and kid kind of relationship, like even when they're older, but it would just evolve and change. So that we're not guiding them so much, but we're there to support when they need it and all that stuff. That's a really long answer to that question, but yes.

Great answer. Great answer.
Do you think, so you mentioned your own upbringing and I've thought about this a lot and I still haven't quite decided. I haven't really landed on how I think and feel about it. You mentioned that it did impact your parenting style. And I always wonder cause I see people who, whose parents like smoke, for example, and then they do the exact opposite and they don't smoke.

Or I see people who copy the patterns of their parents, where if their parents smoked and they become smokers and it just, the pattern keeps repeating. And I always wonder what is that change, or what makes somebody change from, my parents used to smoke, but I'm not going to I always wonder that.

But anyway, I'm curious to know is your style the same as your parents? Is it completely opposite or has it changed so that it's filling the gap that you didn't get when you were a kid?

Yeah, great question. I think it is. It's definitely not the same. That can, I can definitely , with confidence say that it's definitely not the same.

I would say that it is probably the latter in terms of feeling in gaps that I maybe felt as a kid. The thing is it's difficult because my parents when my grandpa came over during the war and sponsored everyone over, there was a lot of sacrifices and we were very poor and, my parents worked a lot to give us stuff what we needed in terms of our childhood and upbringing. So I would say that I have this privilege in terms of that they didn't have in regards to, money and time. So I would say a lot of their parenting style was stemmed from that. I do wonder that if the situation was different and they had more money, they had more time, they had the luxury of stuff that, Matthew and I have that their parenting styles would be different, but that was their way of showing love. In terms of

working so hard to provide us with things that they wanted to provide us with. So I would, yeah, it's difficult cause I don't want to judge them on stuff like that, but there is some personal reflection in regards to things that as a kid that maybe you would have liked to have had more of and therefore.

I'm making sure that my kids get that stuff. So I think it makes sense that like on reflection that I'm an attached parenting style mom. And I know that Matthew, my husband would agree because he had an interesting upbringing as well. And, there were some relationships that even to now, you know, and he's almost 40, that there's probably still trauma there.

So I think his approach as a dad definitely has been impacted, influenced. on his decision. So I think for both of us, it's a, what was missing? How can we make sure that isn't missing for our kids? So you were saying at the start that you haven't decided on your thoughts on this, but like, where are you at with this?

So I've decided in terms of my own, I just haven't figured out like what that missing piece is that makes someone change up that pattern of parenting. Cause you do see people that, for good or for bad. They copy of the same parenting style and history just repeats itself.

And obviously, in the situations where it's not the greatest childhood experience, you always wonder, like the people that do break out of that, like what makes them break out of that. But from my end, I would have to agree that I think I've gravitated towards the parenting style that

I would have liked to have had when I was younger and same sort of situation. My parents came, they were immigrants, they came to Australia with literally one suitcase, couldn't speak a word of English, barely any money to their name and they had to start from scratch literally. So everything they did. It was very survival.

It was very survival based. And it put a lot of pressure on me that I had to learn English and I had to do all those things to support them in that way, to help them out. And there just wasn't enough time. So time is the luxury that we have here, that we can do all these things with our kids now.

And it is based off the backs of our parents and grandparents. But they just didn't have the time. So they were always working. They didn't have that community. They didn't know about things like play centers.
They didn't have all these things. They just didn't know, they didn't know it existed.

Working two, three jobs. And then when my parents split, my mom became a single mom. And again, that was just, it was a lot of pressure on her. So it's not that she did a bad job. It's just that she did the best that she could in the circumstances that were afforded to her. And it's not that I'm looking back like the same, like you, it's not like we're looking back and we go, Oh she did this wrong or they did this wrong or anything like that.

In order for us to heal and grow as people, I think we're looking back and we're going, Oh had I've had this, or I wish I had more of this and then things could have been different or whatever, but yeah, a hundred percent. It was always time that I craved, like that one-to-one connection with my parents.

And also, I feel because they didn't give me the time and they didn't really give me any guidance or anything, a lot of it I had to figure out on my own and that kind of wasn't my style as a kid. I really needed someone to guide me. Thankfully though I didn't go down the wrong path and I didn't go and do, anything bad or get into any trouble.

But There was definitely that element there where I could have. The plus side is that I became super independent and I'm super self sufficient. The bad side is that now I can't really rely on anyone. So there's good and bad for everything, but it is really interesting that, we've only just, it's just the two of us, but I'd be interested to see if anyone else.

agrees? Does anyone else that's listening, do you parent based off the gaps that you felt from your childhood? I'd be really interested to know. Please let us know what your thoughts are on this topic.

And then I was just thinking in regards to like with the different parenting styles, have you encountered situations where you have found another parent's style, parenting style, so different to yours that it was like abrasive or you couldn't agree, or maybe it pushed a button or something.

Have you had any of that in the last six years? Have you come across that?

Honestly, no, I think that there are definitely situations where you meet people and you're like, Oh, I probably wouldn't have done that, you cannot judge someone on a five minute interaction, a one hour interaction, because you just don't know what's happened before all of that.

I'll give you an example. Aiden and I went to some bird park, and there was like bird feeding, and there was cockatoos, which, If you're not from Australia, they're these giant, not giant, but they're these birds that are quite large.

I think they're scary. They're scary. They have a really strong beak and they literally bite your fingers off, thumbs off. And if you go to a zoo or anywhere, they have signs saying, please don't put your fingers in because they will be bitten off. And they squawk really loudly. So they sound quite scary and large wingspan.

And they're not scared of you. They're not. And they're not scared. They're not scared of you. And anyway, so we were at this park and I was holding Aiden and we were just like walking around and we're looking at the birds. And I distinctly remember this mom, telling this girl to go and feed the cockatoos, the birds.

I think it was the birds, but cockatoos were around and she was visibly petrified. Like she was crying. She was so scared. And the mom was just , yelling at her, shaming her, telling her to just get over it, just go and do it. And in that moment, like I just, my mom instinct overcame and I was like, I didn't say anything, but I was just like, Oh, this poor girl.

I just want to take her home with me and give her a hug and tell her it's okay. And if she's scared and she doesn't want to do it, she doesn't have to. But I don't know the situation. I don't know what is going on in that dynamic. I don't know what's happening. Yes, it didn't sit right with me, but

I don't know these people from a bar of soap. So it's hard to say the friends that I do have. I think the answer is no, I don't have any friends or I don't have anyone close to me that conflicts with my parenting style. I think you can always learn from someone else's style. Like I really do admire how you handled the boys and your style.

And as well as the other moms from the mother's group, there's definitely things that I pull from their styles and it helps me in certain situations, but it's one of those things . like attracts like. So I don't have anyone in my life that really is polar opposite to me. But again, I don't have a big family where , you're obligated to see certain people, whether you like them or not.

So I get to choose who I'm around. So I, yeah, I don't really have anything. What about you? Is that the same? Yeah.

I'm going to keep probing on this question because I think my answer is slightly different to yours. But in that situation where that little girl is petrified and that mum is, you have to go and, all that stuff that you said, what scenario do you think or what happened to make this okay?

Because I would just I can't imagine any situation where if Kenzo is absolutely petrified, I'd be like, no, you're doing that. Honestly, I can't think of it. So yeah, it's not like I'm judging her. I am doing what you're saying in terms of, I would definitely absolutely not do that. And I don't know what's going on, but then I'm like, you know what, what has gone on for that to be okay with how you're dealing with your child?

I just, what do you think?

It's a hard one. So the girl, if she was a lot older than our kids, so she must've been eight, nine, 10, maybe. Sorry. I probably should have said that to begin with. So I don't know. Maybe it was, there's a history of she's scared of birds and maybe the mum thought this is the best way to get her over that fear.

I know that I even do things that I regret and I'm shamed of, right? In the moment, in need of it and you're, yeah, of course. So I don't know, maybe they drove really, really far to get to this place because she really wanted to feed these birds and then she didn't feed the birds and then mom got angry.

She's like, just feed them heads. Just get over and feed the birds. So I just, I don't know, but like my first thing is I just want to bring her home and give her a hug. Is she okay? And just gentle parent her and all of that stuff, but. It goes back to what we were talking about parenting styles, it's another thing that I, or our upbringing, our childhood, and it's always a thing that I think about in terms of sometimes you grow a lot more from adversity, right?

So if we're always making things happy and lovely and not showing them the bad side of things, in every situation help our kids grow? I don't think so. I think that what she did is a bit extreme. Absolutely. But again, I don't know what the situation was. And I don't know if that actually ended up helping the kid get over a fear of birds.

You don't know, right? We will never know. We will never know. So I can't say that what she did was wrong or bad or that I wouldn't do that. Like I probably, I might, who knows, stay tuned.

I had this situation and I remember it very clearly. And I think, just even just us talking about this and I'm reflecting, I'm like, yeah, I think I am attachment.

I think I am so what happened was we were at a park and there was this kid, same age as, Ambrose. Ambrose is two and a half now. They were probably around two at the time. And they were climbing up a thing to get to the really tall slide. And Ambrose has always been pretty physical.

He started walking at 10 months and he doesn't care about climbing. He just, he goes up, whatever. But he likes me to be there. So I'm there watching him supporting him. Yeah, go, go, go. And there was this kid about the same age as him. And he was a bit scared to climb up. And his dad was there. Not supportive, definitely not attachment style parenting.

And he said, and it really, hit a nerve, but he said what did he say? He said, you're a baby. Why can't you climb this? You're a baby. Your brother can do this. Like, why are you being such a baby about this? Not supportive at all. Not encouraging at all. And I remember, cause I was there like encouraging Ambrose.

Like it was night and day, like literally I was standing next to each other. And I remember he looked around and we made eye contact and I could just, I just knew in that moment, he was scared. He was scared. He was genuinely scared to climb up and genuinely a little bit scared from his dad's.

His dad's approach of, trying to encourage him to get up. And I just, I gave him a little smile and his dad walked off, right? I think his dad had enough of the whole situation. So I helped him get up and then he and Ambrose played a bit together. And I climbed up too. Cause I'm very like, I'm going to be in the playground with you.

I'll climb up as well. And I don't know that really hit a nerve for me because I was like, in no way, in no situation would I be trying to encourage my kid in that way because it was just against every fiber of my body. But I do agree in terms of there are times when I step back from the attachment style.

Because. I think it'd be good for them. So even recently with Kenzo starting primary school and second week we've experienced some bullying, even with that, I had a few conversations with him, but I'm like you've got to deal with this son. Like you, this is going to be something that is going to come to you throughout life and there's going to be situations where you are going to have to deal with it.

I will try my very best to give you foundation and do my best to talk to you about maybe different scenarios that might happen or however to help you feel like you've got backing in terms of how you might deal with it, but he's going to have to deal with it.

And there's been times even at the playground where Ambrose's like, Oh, I can't do this. Well, Do it, do it. I'll be here if you fall. It's all good. But I just remember that situation with that other dad. And I just I remember mentioning it to my husband as well. Cause he wasn't there but I was like, wow I don't know how you thought this could help your kid. He was genuinely scared of the situation climbing up and of you. And I think for me, one of the things that I would be just so distraught about is if my kids were scared of me, like that would just be absolutely horrific for me.

And I just think about this parent. And this kid was scared of his dad. I'm like, that's really sad. So that was my, yeah. Experience with that.

So that wraps up today's discussion. We really enjoyed analyzing our quiz results. It was a lot of fun and it's free activity to do, maybe something you can do with your friends or your partner. We did do the same exercise with our partners, so stay tuned for the next episode where we'll dive in and discuss that.

Remember, you're doing a great job no matter what your parenting style is, what you've adopted, what you've decided your approach to be. As always, thank you for listening and for your company. Don't take yourself so seriously. Let there be some fun. Bye.