Milk and Madness

It's so hard it is so difficult, and I always worry that they're not getting enough, especially with their behavior of sitting on my lap and just being so clingy with me.

I'm always like, does that mean they're not getting enough attention? Hello, beautiful listeners. This is Dee and Nhi. We're the hosts for the Milk and Matters podcast. I'm Dee. Thank you for joining us. Just when you thought having one child was challenging enough, let's throw another or multiple into the mix and it becomes a whole different ballgame.

Nhi here. In today's episode, we'll talk about the transition for having one child to two or more, how having another child changes the family dynamics.

It may even change the bond with your current children, your approach to self care, discipline, time management, and everything in between.

Question time! So let's paint a little picture here. So we both have two kids each. I have a boy and a girl, and Nhi has two boys. In the early days the first few months after bringing Ambrose home, did you notice a change in Kenzo's behavior, the way that he behaved towards you, towards Matthew, and towards a new baby coming into the mix?

Absolutely. So we tried to prepare as much as possible because change for anyone is difficult and we know that change for Kenzo, especially when he was three, was something that was difficult for him to manage as well. We did all this stuff in terms of talking to him way in advance. About how he was going to have a brother really soon, by the books about how you're going to become a big brother, we watched, cartoon shows out, that happening.

And talked about it quite a lot in terms of my pregnancy. This is what's happening. And I, mommy's belly is growing bigger and there's a baby in there and really just involving him in the whole entire journey. Did that help? I think that helped. But it was still really difficult. And we did anticipate it, but.

I think going from being the only child, 100 percent attention to having to split that attention, especially with a newborn where they need a lot of attention and feeling like in some way you are becoming second. It's really difficult. Although of course, he's not second we're just trying to provide what the newborn baby versus three year old needs is really difficult because it's so different.

So Kenzo found it quite difficult and honestly still finds it quite difficult. There are times now when, and because they're both mummy's boys. It's my attention that's really stretched. If Ambrose is sitting in my lap Kenzo might come over and try to squeeze in as well.

If I was playing with Ambrose or I was playing with Kenzo the other way around. Not only Kenzo, but also for Ambrose actually in terms of just getting, , just feeling like they're getting their attention when they need it is quite difficult. The juggling act is on a whole new level when you have another child, you add that other child into the mix.

I think, honestly, I think that's the main thing in terms of just managing the change for Kenzo, helping him with that and making him know and being confident that he knows that of course he's still, very much loved and that nothing would change in terms of that.

It's just that we've got another baby, you've got a baby brother, and some of mummy and daddy's attention has to go towards. This other child as well. How about you?

It's, you can never, it's never going to go perfectly. And if anyone does tell me what the tricks are, not that I'm having any more kids, but it'd be good to know.

Because you can't prepare them for that change. Like they just don't know what's coming to them. And Aiden, even though it's only six months difference, Aiden being two and a half months, like six months still at that age, it's a big difference, right? And we, same thing, we did all the preparations, we spoke about it, we tried to involve him in it, and I do wholeheartedly think that it did help.

It brought him on the journey with us and. Made him understand what was coming. So it wasn't so jarring. We did, the whole bought the present from the baby, all that sort of stuff. Like you read all the books and you ask other moms what did you do? What did you do? And that's, it works in that initial, you bring the baby home and then it's okay, cool.

Yep. There's a new baby. That's a bit of excitement, but then you're right. Like as soon as they notice that you're feeding the baby and not playing with them or. doing something else, changing the baby's nappy and not giving them attention. That's when it. it starts to kick in and that's when they start to play out a little bit and Aidan did, he did, he played out a little bit at the start, like he was a lot more needy and threw a few more tantrums than what he normally would.

But he was really good because His routine didn't really change, so he was still going to child care for the most part until COVID hit. And then he ended up staying at home, and then I was spending a lot of time with him. Yeah, there was a lot of moving parts and a lot of things happening, but the main thing was really just spending that quality time with him.

And if it meant feeding Amelia and also playing with him at the same time or putting on a movie for him or putting on a TV show where he was distracted enough to not realize that I was spending so much time, like time with Amelia. And it could have just been something like she wasn't feeling so well, so she needed, more love or.

She just wanted to sleep on me. So we put a movie on so I could have her on me and Aiden sitting next to me. So I wasn't like carrying them both, just little things like that, I think really helped him and talking to him like every single step of the way, talking to him. I remember when he, when Amelia was really little she must've been, she wasn't even rolling.

So she must've been only like three months old. If that, she had no teeth, didn't make any noise, like nothing. She was just like this little baby. Didn't move, didn't do anything. But she wasn't like a newborn, I remember that. And I gave Aiden some like some little cereal bricks. So they're like, about yay big.

He had teeth, so he was fine. He could eat them. And I gave it to him in a bowl and I was in the kitchen. I'm like, go and eat your snack. And I was like cooking. And I just remember thinking, why is he so quiet? Which is not unusual when they're eating food, right? When they're eating food, they're usually quiet anyway.

But I remember thinking, why is he so quiet? instinct. And I come around the corner and he's like shoving these bricks into Amelia's mouth, like shoving them into her mouth. And I just remember her face, it was so funny. It was really scary at the time, but it was actually funny as well. No teeth, like nothing, she had nothing there.

She's like looking around what the hell is going on? This is not a boob. She's so confused. The look on her face was pure confusion. Now, I reacted quite badly in that moment, and I think it was probably the first time that I yelled at Aiden, because I got scared, because I didn't know how had he shoved it down her throat was she choking?

I just actually got really scared. I remember yelling at him, going, Aiden, don't do that! And going straight over to her and picking them out of her mouth. And there was only two in there, and they were small, but still for a baby, chokable. And I remember he got really scared and I got really scared.

And as soon as I realized she was fine, I'm like, okay, no, I need to sit down with him and I need to talk to him. And I remember specifically telling him like, Aiden, you've got teeth. You can chew things that are hard. Amelia doesn't have any teeth yet. She only drinks milk from mommy and like having that whole conversation with him.

And from that point on, I realized I need to explain things to him because he doesn't know, obviously, how is he going to know? And that kind of changed the way that we move forward and it really made me bring him on that journey a lot more. And I think it really helped because then he didn't feel like I was spending time with Amelia, like he understood why, and he understood the why, which to a two and a half year old I don't know how much he really got, but it really made a difference.

Just an observation. Cause my boys, they fight all the time. It gets really physical. It gets quite rough. And I'm always like, Oh, I've read, , got to let them have this rough play. It's super important, especially for boys but it's, I find it really difficult.

And I find just having observed your kids that I know they argue, but I feel like that in general, they get along better than my boys. And I do wonder if it's the different sex thing. And I know this is a generalization, right? Because not all boys are rough and all girls are not rough

but speaking from my personal experience with my boys and, my cousins and mother's group and seeing how the kids are, I do feel that in general, boys can be more rough, more physical. A hundred percent. Yeah. I always wonder if I did have a girl it would be how it is and I know that they as they get older it's getting easier and it's getting better for their relationship because for Kenzo he's always preferred playing with older kids always he loves playing with kids like three, four years older than him.

So I knew it was always going to be challenged with Ambrose being the baby. Being his younger brother, so I think in a couple of years when they can really, truly play together properly, it would really be great for their relationship. But I do wonder if it was, if I had another, if it was a boy girl situation, if it would be less rough, less physical.

what do you think about that?

I've not, I don't know. Have you seen my kids play on the trampoline? Yes, I have. Yeah. It gives me anxiety and it gives most people anxiety because they are so rough. But Amelia is laughing her head off. She loves it. And I'm sitting there going, Aiden is like kneeing her in the back and like in the head and I'm just like, Oh my God, something's going to break any minute now.

Like it's going to happen. And there's me going guys, be gentle. Come on, play nice. And they're just babying on it mostly Aiden, but she loves it. So I think potentially Kenzo and Ambrose have very different personalities, whereas Aiden and Amelia, they are very, they are different, but they are also very similar.

And I can get away with, I talked to Aiden and I explained to him, I'm like, Aiden, you are very strong. Amelia's a bit smaller than you. She's not as strong. You just have to remember that. Because you are so strong, sometimes you may hurt her, you don't mean to, but you may hurt her. I try and put that into perspective for him.

Don't know, I don't think it is a gender thing. I think it's a personality thing and it's a language thing because the older they get and the more they can communicate with each other, I think that will help. But now because of that age gap as well a little bit, they're not on the same sort of page where, whereas Amelia, like I said she's almost three going 13, but she can like out talk any of us and she's very verbal.

So she can, she can hold her own and. Like with language, maybe not physically, but definitely with language. So that, I think that makes a difference as well. It's not so much the size of the child or the age of the child. It's, whether they can verbalize. So once ambrose gets a little bit older and can really talk and maybe say stop or don't or let's play this or like how Aiden and Kenzo talk to each other let's figure it out and let's play here and what about this? And I think it will change, but they're always going to, they're always going to fight.

I just have to, you have to make it

work like that, yeah? Yeah, I've made peace with the fact that they'll definitely I'm going rogue today. So a lot of

questions are coming into, coming to my mind. Good, go rogue, I love rogue. So

having a second child, why did you do it?

Seriously? That's a good question.

I really wanted to give Aiden a sibling. I did. I like, I love the pregnancy. That experience, like I enjoyed it. Like it was fine for me. I didn't hate it.

So I, and I know it's never, it might not be the same for the second child, but in my mind, I'm like, Oh yeah, if it was like the first, it should be fine. . I grew up with a sibling Calvin grew up with siblings, all of our families, like we don't, oh, apart from my cousin, she's the single child, but most of us all have a sibling.

And I know that, there's that bond there. There's that, me and you, like we're us against the world and it's. It's different. I don't know how to be a single child. Like I wouldn't know what that's like because I had a sister, but the main reason probably is to give, was to give aid in the sibling and have that experience of having someone there that you can rely on and it's there for you.

But anyway what about you? What made you decide to go again? I

think the same reasons, like we didn't, honestly, it wasn't something we debated about a lot. Again, Matt and I are the oldest, we have younger siblings. And yeah, again, I don't know what it is or how it feels to be an only child.

And I think it is nice to have someone who, is going to be in your corner and I hope that our prison games are going to be like that. It was just, it's something that we didn't think about too much. It's not something we took lightly though. We also said that we were really happy with one, and if we didn't have another, we would have been completely fine, not an issue at all. So I'm very grateful that, it was an easy process for us, but yeah, I would say mostly for Kimzo as well. What lessons from your first did you adapt with your second? Across anything.

I pretty much had to throw everything out of what I knew, given that I

have a girl. It was so different. I'm like, okay, now I know how to be a boy mom. Now, what do I do with a girl? Of course you already know about sleep patterns, and you already know how to bathe them, and you already know, those fundamental things, but they're never the same.

I think they do it on purpose. They're like, oh she's been there, done that. Let's just throw something else in.

Amelia in the early stages, the baby stages, it was easier because obviously I was a lot more comfortable. I knew what I was doing. So there was that uncertainty was gone. So that was easier. Sure. However, because they are, they do have very different personalities. What I know of Aiden and the way that he operates and the way that he likes, like his love language and the way that he likes to be disciplined and like all those things.

Do not work on Amelia. So I literally had to throw out the book and start again with her because. I tried those things and it would have been great if they do because I'm like cool I know what's going on but she, I still haven't figured her out. Don't tell her that. I'm still trying, she's almost three and I'm still trying, whereas with eight and I was like, tried something and he just went for it and I'm like cool this is I still had to adapt a few things along the way, but it's, yeah, it's like the things that there's some things that are really easy to do to adapt from one child to another.

And then there's this whole other area where it comes to personality and it comes to like your discipline, it comes to like feeding and all sorts of things that you have to completely change. So

my approach with Amelia now is. Try everything new. Try and try again. Because with Aiden it was just try one thing and it generally worked. Can't, I can't do that with her. She doesn't respond. Or if she does, she changes her mind. She is typical female. Changes her mind. Today it works, tomorrow it doesn't.

Today I can bribe her with this, tomorrow I can't. So it's, the word adapt is really perfect in this because you really do have to keep adapting to the age. They don't start walking at the same time, they don't start teething at the same time, they don't start doing any of those things.

at the same milestone times. Right now I'm having the challenge with Amelia sucking her fingers. And Aiden did the same, but Aiden, pretty much as soon as he turned two, I don't even know what we did. I think we just told him like he needs to stop sucking his fingers.

Like it's bad for his teeth or something. And he just stopped straight away. Like he just got it. And he just stopped with Amelia. I've tried everything. I've even tried giving her a lollipop. That's how desperate I got. My kids don't really eat sugar. And I'm like, okay, you know what? I know you love lollipop.

I know you love sugar. You desperately want a lollipop because they give them out of child care. Don't ask me why. And I'm like, okay, here's the deal. You don't suck your fingers for a whole day and I'll give you a lollipop. That lasted all of two seconds. So it's so hard because it, they just, nothing works on her and I'm pulling out my hair, whereas with Aiden, he's just a lot more chill and a lot more compliant or a lot more just goes with the flow and just listens, whereas she just.

Pushes, pushes, and pushes. Oh bless her. What about you? Because your kids are very different as well.

Oh yes, they're so different. I think our approach has been to use what we know, do what we know. And then it doesn't work, then let's try something else. Let's throw something else, at the wall.

But they are so different. And there are things that there is a feeling of quiet confidence or a comfort that you have when you come into your second child because you have gone through all of it with your first child. And Kenzo, we had a few things where we had to do trial and error with sleeping and breastfeeding

so we had that knowledge coming into the second. So I think that really helped. And even if the strategies or even if the approach had to be different, still coming in with that comfort level helped because it's not like the first time where you go, Oh my God, I read this. Why is it not working?

What do I do? How, Oh my God, if I do this, I'm not going to ruin this child forever and so having that really helped. You come in with a sense of ease and also you're not looking up everything. Or when do they start walking? When do they start talking? Amber started walking like legit at 10 months.

And then we're like,

Oh, look, he's walking.

It wasn't this whole buildup or, that focus to it. So that's really interesting. I would say you feel your time management and juggling is at a really good level when you have that one child, but the reality is as two parents or for up for my situation, two parents with one kid, , then you add another child into the mix and it's two and two, one on one, right?

So that is a whole new level again, in terms of juggling. Then, we find out that they're both mummy's boys, so it's really two on one. That was that's still something that we're that I'm still learning or trying to finesse a bit more. But a lot of stuff, I think you go into with a sense of ease and with a comfort level, so it does help significantly, even if it's, even if that second child is throwing something brand new.

at you. It helps because you feel like, you know what? I can do this. There are rough days, of course, but you do feel like I've got this.

So how did you navigate the balance of attention between your first and your second?

It's still a juggle. It's still a work in progress to be honest. I think I do okay with it most of the time because I try to involve both of them.

So Kenzo, as I mentioned, prefers to play with all the kids, but every now and again they do play and it really warms my heart when I see them playing. At the moment it's all about monster trucks. It's all about cars, anything that can move, right? So I've got these two giant monster trucks that they both push around and they make crazy monster truck sounds around the house.

You can do like a lap around my house. It's so adorable. So one strategy that I have is to include them both in whatever it is that we're doing. So if Kenza wants to play trucks and he doesn't particularly want Ambrose to play, then I will try my best to negotiate that. When I say negotiate, I really mean it.

And try to get Ambrose involved into it, even if it's. But it's not him doing exactly the same thing. He's still involved with it. I don't know, maybe you go help build the track that the monster trucks are going to go on

another thing is, Matt and I really try to have one on one time with each of them. It might be Ambrose is having a nap so Matt might stay home and then I will go have a lunch date with Kenzo. Or Matt takes Kenzo out to do something and then therefore I'm at home trying to nap with Ambrose. Or whatever it is, like we really try to make sure we still have that one on one time.

And I think it's really helpful for Kenzo in particular who, wasn't only child for three years and is used to having one on one time with mummy and daddy. So I think that's really, that has really helped and it's something that will definitely keep going. And I really enjoy that one on one time with them too, because it's undelighted attention for both of you.

So I would say that they are strategies that's really helped me. How about you?

Yeah, I actually really love that. I need to start incorporating some of that one on one time. Like we don't, when we're at home and yes, if one's distracted with something, I might give the other attention. And of course, like if I'm changing a nappy or if I'm You know, brushing their teeth or something.

Then they get that one on one time. But for me, we, a lot of the time it's they're doing things together, like even bath time, like it's together.. So I think my attention is on both of them at once. And so I really need to figure out a way to maybe split it. We're going through this really weird phase at the minute where Aiden is acting like a baby don't know if that's partly because he's going to school, I don't know if it's partly because maybe he doesn't have as much attention. I'm not sure where it's coming from. I know though, like they all go through phases and hopefully this will pass as well. The kids are, they're both mummy, mummy's kids.

Aiden is a hundred percent a mummy's boy. Amelia is probably 80 percent on me and 20 percent with Kelvin. Which does put a lot of pressure on me. To time manage them, like to the point where, when they're having breakfast, they have to sit on my lap, both of them at the same time. So it's like one on each leg. Not just breakfast, any meal that they eat, basically, they have to sit on my lap. And if they aren't sitting on my lap, They won't eat, which is really frustrating because when I'm not home, they're fine. Like they will sit, they will eat. They're fine. They're perfectly well behaved.

They're no issues. But if I'm around, they need me, they need to sit on my lap. And like I know they're only little for a small period of time. So I'm like, you know what? I'll just let them do it. Like I'm not going to get upset about it. It's annoying because obviously I can't have my breakfast or anything like that.

So a lot of our activities really involve the two of them.

I do try when one is distracted. So like on the weekend, for example, Aiden was playing outside and he was fine. He was content. Calvin was out there and Amelia and I came inside and we just spent some time and we did some drawing and I just spent a little bit of time with her on that and vice versa. . I find it really hard to split the time up. , I feel like I can never give either of them enough time, enough one to one time. So it's a work in progress. It's really difficult. I try my best to give them one to one, like on a daily basis, little chunks wherever I can, and then on the weekends to give them bigger chunks and have that one to one.

It's so hard it is so difficult, and I always worry that they're not getting enough, especially with their behavior of sitting on my lap and just being so clingy with me.

I'm always like, does that mean they're not getting enough attention? But when I try to give it to them they still behave the same way. So I'm like, okay, maybe that's not it. Maybe it's something else. I don't know. It's, I don't have the answer. Yeah.

. And like the mum guilt that comes along with everything.

And this included because it's one of those questions I think you have as a mum all the time. In the back of my head, this is gonna cause like lifelong permanent damage and I've ruined their lives if I, do this. Yeah. And if you feel that maybe. And because we're juggling so much because we've got so many roles that we play, wife, friends, sister, ma, just everything.

And yeah, you do feel the mom guilt when you have multiple kids and you feel that maybe They're not getting as much attention that they need, which is really difficult because you're trying to do everything else as well. And this is part of it,

I suppose. It is. I, yeah, I just need to figure out a way to incorporate a little bit more in and see if that makes a change, I think, and see how that goes.

But yeah, those buckets, I swear they've got holes in them. They just never fall. They've

all got cracks in them, oh gosh. With the kids, cause they're all so different, and your kids are similar but different in terms of personality, have you found that they've responded to the same kind of discipline approaches?

No. No, like I said, Amelia is just, she's just an enigma. Is that the right word? Mmhmm. Enigma? Yeah. Mmhmm. Okay. Good. Aiden is very conscious and he really responds to positive discipline and rewards. So with him, when we did potty training, we bought him the present and we said, look, this is your present.

And if you go to the toilet and you do your wheeze and poos, like you, you can have this present. And he loved that. Like he pretty much responded to that straight away. Like he was potty trained really quickly and didn't really have a lot of accidents. Yeah. And he, yeah, he was great with that.

Amelia loves that too, but she does not comply. She, her thing is stickers and chewing gum. Don't ask me why. That's her thing, that's her vibe. I'm like, okay, cool. Amelia, if you don't, if you have a dry nappy and you don't, you use the toilet I'll give you a chewing gum or I'll give you a sticker and she'll take the sticker or she'll take the chewing gum and she'll do the wee one time and then she's that's it.

I'm done. I don't need this anymore. As Aiden was like, okay, like I want more toys. Like I want this positive reinforcement. Whereas Amelia's okay, I got it once. I know what this is about. I need something else. So with her, honestly, it's so hard because I've tried, I've even gone down the dark road of trying things that probably Not ideal.

I know you're like, like what? What? Tell me more. Shaming her. I only tried it once. Cause I'm like, I'm just curious to know if this will work. Cause I've tried all the good things. Like I've tried all the positive things, like giving her attention, taking her places, giving her food, buying her a book, like different things. I've tried all those things. I'm like, okay let's try the shame now. Like Amelia, if you don't have a dry nappy and if you keep not using the toilet and keep using your nappy, what did I say? You're not going to, you're not going to get bigger.

You're going to stay in the same childcare room. Like you're not going up to the next room. Like they, they don't let you in those sorts of things. I felt really bad, but then childcare was saying it as well. I was like, okay, I don't feel as bad. But I'm like, come on Amelia you're getting big now you need to start using the toilet Aiden uses the toilet we use the toilet, just trying to put into perspective for her, that also didn't work.

So I don't know she is potty trained now, but I think for her it's almost like I have to just let her do it on her own time. Whereas Aiden responded to that external, Feedback from me, the positive feedback. Whereas Amelia, I don't know. I feel like I just have to like, let her go.

Whereas I'm still like clinging on. Cause she's like little and, but I think I just have to let her go. I don't know. Maybe I'll try that tactic and see how it goes. I haven't figured her out yet. Honestly. She's she's such a tough nut to crack, which I love, but also hate. Cause it makes my life harder.

What about for you? Like discipline strategies? Were they both, did they both respond to the same stuff or no?

So discipline is, one of those things that just evolves through experience. And I think the age of the child is such a major factor. So there's three years difference, and right now between two, two and a half and five and a half, it's massive for kids in terms of, how you can approach discipline.

So with Kenzo, he really responds to, you know what, you're not going to make this decision and you and I, let's talk it through. These are the pros and cons. And these are the potential impacts if we do ABC but you need to get in early. The second I feel there's got to be a potential argument here, I'm getting in.

We're having that, pros and cons impact chat. What do you want to do? This is what I think because of this and okay, maybe we can do it's negotiating as well. If he's going to be a lawyer, it's going to be incredible, because he's very strong at negotiation already. I can't do that with Ambrose, because he literally is at the, beginning of his language skills.

So he's doing really well actually, with his speech. But I can't go through pros and cons list with him yet. Yes. So it's, a simpler approach, but I'm doing the same approach just at the level of the child in terms of what they comprehend. I would say we try to do a gentle parenting approach where it's about, the tone and how you approach things and they're not yelling.

So I think overall that has. It's been really great for us. I try my best not to yell and when I do, you deal with it, you talk to them about it but I would say discipline evolves. Discipline is something that you might have had a perception of before you became a parent of what you would do.

It will most likely change. You will be tested 100%. When you have kids, when you have one kid, when you have two kids yes. I would say for me, it's literally just about it's using the same approach, but just adapting it for the child at the age and their ability in terms of language and comprehension.

Do I have any advice? I think just remember that the kids are different, the different kids have different personality. They might want different things. So that's probably the biggest advice I can give you.

They have different motivators. Yeah, absolutely.

Ambrose eats everything. Loves food. If you, if there was cupcake involved, yep, I think he'll do it. Although we try not to, have like bribes or that kind of stuff. But coming out again, it could work. Because he couldn't care less about food. It doesn't matter.

So for me, is it going to be fun? Am I going to,, be challenged? Am I going to create something with you? There's other motivators. And so understanding your kids. So when you have a child, when you have a newborn, discipline is not a thing, right? But as your child gets older and they develop personality and they develop whatever their motivations are, you will pick up on that.

And then you can use that in the most positive way possible in terms of helping to discipline.

Okay. So that's us for us today. Thank you so much for joining us as always. We love hearing from you and would love to know how many kids you have, how that journey has been, why you decided to have more than one child and, remember to embrace the chaos because there's going to be a lot of it and cherish every moment. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.

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